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Why did you take the overlay away and make it a $250 option? The ultimate bait and switch.

If this is not changed I am going to look at all my GPS option again. Previous to this i was a fan. I paid money for all my MBtiles files to use on your app. Now maybe a lowrance makes more sense. At least its a one time fee then. i understand its a business and may have needed to be done, its just that as the consumer this definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Answers

  • Damian_offthegridDamian_offthegrid Posts: 692Administrator, Moderator admin
    As we currently build up the platform and work alongside our larger backend mapping partners, the overlay feature had to be moved to the Pro Pack subscription. This capability is a MBTile feature designed by these specific partners and was intended for data overlay use and for massive offline mapping through larger contracts. It was never intended for mass base mapping through outside providers. We also used it for simple overlays of events through contracts with the event organizers.

    These major outside providers are currently increasing pricing by a significant amount this November for these capabilities. With a lot of app manufacturers currently taking advantage of mass users with this lower pricing. You will see all of these more mainstream and general use GPS applications over the next few months dropping these higher end offline mapping options, as they cannot afford to keep it for a lower $20 a year subscription rate. In fact, some have announced and dropped this capability already. Otherwise these were great options, for general use, and I would have suggested them as a possibility.

    LEADNAV will continue to focus on professional use while offering the best capabilities available for our specific users. The majority of the subscription covers the costs of all these outside services and as we promote, if you are online in a cellular environment then the core $20 LEADNAV application is a great option. However if you are offline then you will need a subscription. On foot you can get away with Advanced pack for smaller areas and in a mobility platform you will want Pro pack for its larger ability to store and host offline map imagery and this MBTile feature owned by these outside providers.

    I know this all doesn’t help you any and we appreciate you running the core $20 LEADNAV GPS application.

    Over the past few months we have been working on pulling App subscriptions sales from the Apple store and into our own hands. This way we have more control over the sale of our app. (I personally pay $250 a year for Pro pack, and I own the app…) our control over this was officially launched last week. So now you can take advantage of the 15% discount for pro on our online store.

    If not, again I do appreciate you running our core application and sorry for the changes.
  • EvelKnievelEvelKnievel Posts: 4Member
    edited November 2019
    This is more than a bait and switch. We paid for app functionality for a lifetime. They took away the functionality that we already paid for and now want $250 a year for it. It's definitely unethical and most likely illegal. I'm certain that Apple should hear about it.

    The absurd aspect is that mbtiles functionality isn't dependent on a costly service like online map sources. There isn't an ongoing expense to justify an ongoing subscription cost. Especially one that's so exorbitant. The cost went from one time $20 to $250 a year. That's a significant jump.

    Your iTunes listing states "Free Map Sources include Bing, OpenCycleMap, OpenStreetMap and support of offline mapping options like MBTiles".
    Post edited by EvelKnievel on
  • Damian_offthegridDamian_offthegrid Posts: 692Administrator, Moderator admin
    edited November 2019
    The MBTile file type is a capability provided and intended for our outside map providers and is used for contracted services. These are the map providers we pay for their services and features within our application. They are in the process of greatly raising prices this month to the point all of your more mainstream cheaper $20 a year applications out there are dropping these higher grade providers.

    We are not, and working alongside these providers to provide the highest level of capabilities we can to our professional clients at the price point we need to to continue their services.

    Currently we are turning on better map and feature usage monitoring to better price and appease these map providers. So prices will continue to vary as we continue to evolve and develop our capabilities.

    Again MBTile was intended for contracted mapping and services and it falls under the Pro level of user. We have no affiliation with outside products or companies that are using this format, owned by our map providers, to sell on their own.

    Understand your frustration but at $20 for a lifetime gps you are not paying for offline mapping or contracted overlays.

    There are many features in the pro level that we continue to evolve, maintain and update. These subscriptions pay for the development. You will most likely see the core app eventually given out for free with subscriptions.


    Damian
    CEO/Founder
    LEADNAV
    Post edited by Damian_offthegrid on
  • EvelKnievelEvelKnievel Posts: 4Member
    The mbtiles functionality that I'm referring isn't related to online map service providers or contract services. I'm referring to the ability to load an offline ".mbtiles" map using iTunes file sharing.
  • Damian_offthegridDamian_offthegrid Posts: 692Administrator, Moderator admin
    edited November 2019
    Our MBTile functionality was intended for our contracted mapping services and overlays through us and our providers. Where are you getting your mbtiles from? Are you building them or paying for them through an outside provider/company?

    We did look at the app description from this recent update and you are correct that the verbiage did not get updated and we apologize. The team is working on getting that description updated now so thank you for pointing that out.

    If you did purchase the LEADNAV app since this update based off that description we fully support you contacting Apple for a refund if you are not happy with the $20 capability nor looking to run Pro for the MBTile functionality.

    Once our map and feature usage integration gets put in you will see a different pricing structure with pro being more affordable for its features with separate billing for the amount of map imagery utilized or needed per user. At this point you may see MBTile support come down into and Advanced subscription level.
  • EvelKnievelEvelKnievel Posts: 4Member
    edited November 2019
    They're maps that I purchased.

    Saying that you intended the functionality for something else is nonsense. You advertised and sold the app with functionality that allowed users to load their own maps. Your iTunes store listing still even states that it's a free map source. I'm trying to use it exactly as intended and advertised. Your iTunes store listing is proof of that.

    Now, you've removed that functionality and you want users to pay $250 a year for something they already purchased.

    You don't get to sell something then take away to make them buy it again. That's not how legitimate businesses work.

    Obviously the original poster, myself and others need this feature. You sold it to us. We're entitled to it. That's how business works.

    Why would you not continue supporting mbtiles maps loaded using iTunes file sharing? They have nothing to do with the online maps that have a cost associated with them.
  • Damian_offthegridDamian_offthegrid Posts: 692Administrator, Moderator admin
    edited November 2019
    We are sorry you are no longer happy with your $20 purchase of LEADNAV. With software, feature sets often change as things evolve and develop. With iOS13 for example, Apple pulled GPX and MBTILE from everyone as a standard file type just a few weeks ago after utilizing it for 6 years. This was once accepted and controlled by them as well.

    We spend a lot of ongoing development time on maintaining and improving the LEADNAV gps application and the MBTile functionality is part of that as it advances.

    Again apologize and you or anyone else trying to utilize LEADNAV for outside MBTiles with the core application may absolutely request a refund on your $20 purchase or we can upgrade you to Pro pack for your troubles.
    Post edited by Damian_offthegrid on
  • EvelKnievelEvelKnievel Posts: 4Member
    Feature sets usually change as a result of adding functionality. If a feature is removed, it's because it's obsolete and no longer needed. You're not removing the feature. You're trying to introduce an ongoing fee for something we already purchased. If you decide to change your licensing model, then you're required to grandfather in everybody that purchased under the previous licensing model. You don't get to charge twice. That's unethical and probably illegal. You sold us a product. We own the right to use it.

    I don't want a refund and I don't want to pay $250 a year for something I already purchased. I purchased mbtiles functionality from you and I'm entitled to it. That's how the business transaction works. It's a commitment.

    Myself, the original poster, alexr and thousands of other customers(alex has 400 alone) all purchased your app to use mbtiles functionality and we're entitled to it.

    How does Apple have anything to do with a $250 yearly cost just to use mbtiles or gpx?

    As a customer, it doesn't make since for you to charge an exorbitant $250/year for feature that isn't a service. We're not using online maps. There isn't an ongoing expense to justify it. We don't even need app updates. We just need the original app that we paid for.



  • RemStur50RemStur50 Posts: 1Applicant
    I have to agree completely with EvilKnievel on this. The initial software license that we purchased included the ability to load MBTiles. That contract between the purchasers and LeadNav has now been ignored and you now expect your customers to step into a completely different contract to retain functionality that we have already paid for.

    I understand that you are in business and need to sell your product at a rate that covers the cost of development, and make a profit on top of that. I have no issue with that whatsoever. However, I do have a problem when a company completely ignores a contract. This is not a case of deprecated functionality as you have alluded to regarding Apple and GPX format. Rather, you are taking basic functionality and moving it to the premium tier.

    I cannot speak for everyone here, but for my recreational use the new licensing model makes absolutely no sense. Sadly, I will no longer be able to use your product.
  • krprescottkrprescott Posts: 1Member
    I am in the same boat as the other posters here where I purchased the app for this particular feature and discovered it had been moved to a subscription model. Here is some background that might help shed some light on a use case that you might not have considered.

    I'm a (weekend) off-road rider that mostly rides national forests, desert, and other public lands. Almost all provide easy to read maps for trail numbers, ratings, etc in PDF format. Garmin Topo's are great, but aren't helpful to quickly navigate the best trails. For a long time I was using KMZ files on my handlebar mounted Garmin GPSmap 62 with overlay maps. I built up these maps using Google Earth by georeferencing the PDF (and then painstakingly slicing the image to comply with garmin limitations). The Garmin has limited resolution, slow to load, non-touch, and expensive (especially for the casual rider), but was worlds better than pulling out the paper map at each intersection.

    My KOH friend turned me on to Leadnav a couple years ago and I've since switched to using that app on my handlebar instead. You can get away with using iPhone5 (cheapest model with compass) and they can be had for $50 on ebay. Hardwire kit, mount, App all for about $100. I had gotten a handful of my friends so far on the same system. I make the .mbtiles from forest maps using Maptiler and share with the friends I've set this up with. Anyone that had updated their app recently will find that they are now unable to view the .mbtiles we loaded. When I finally discovered why, I figured hell yeah I'll sign up, this has been working great! When I found out that the cost to view these .mbtiles would now be $250 annually however, I could no longer justify using this over the Garmin.

    While I could see certain applications that this function serves calling for this type of cost structure, I hope you will consider branching off the viewing of .mbtiles for the more casual users of the application like my friends and I.

    Kyle
  • Damian_offthegridDamian_offthegrid Posts: 692Administrator, Moderator admin

    I am in the same boat as the other posters here where I purchased the app for this particular feature and discovered it had been moved to a subscription model. Here is some background that might help shed some light on a use case that you might not have considered.

    I'm a (weekend) off-road rider that mostly rides national forests, desert, and other public lands. Almost all provide easy to read maps for trail numbers, ratings, etc in PDF format. Garmin Topo's are great, but aren't helpful to quickly navigate the best trails. For a long time I was using KMZ files on my handlebar mounted Garmin GPSmap 62 with overlay maps. I built up these maps using Google Earth by georeferencing the PDF (and then painstakingly slicing the image to comply with garmin limitations). The Garmin has limited resolution, slow to load, non-touch, and expensive (especially for the casual rider), but was worlds better than pulling out the paper map at each intersection.

    My KOH friend turned me on to Leadnav a couple years ago and I've since switched to using that app on my handlebar instead. You can get away with using iPhone5 (cheapest model with compass) and they can be had for $50 on ebay. Hardwire kit, mount, App all for about $100. I had gotten a handful of my friends so far on the same system. I make the .mbtiles from forest maps using Maptiler and share with the friends I've set this up with. Anyone that had updated their app recently will find that they are now unable to view the .mbtiles we loaded. When I finally discovered why, I figured hell yeah I'll sign up, this has been working great! When I found out that the cost to view these .mbtiles would now be $250 annually however, I could no longer justify using this over the Garmin.

    While I could see certain applications that this function serves calling for this type of cost structure, I hope you will consider branching off the viewing of .mbtiles for the more casual users of the application like my friends and I.

    Kyle

    LEADNAV is in constant development and pushing the limits of GPS technology for our subscribed users and mapping partners. As we start to work with these mapping partners we will be adjusting our subscription models. To continue development and to maintain this capability we must continue to focus on our users subscribing to these developments.

    You will eventually be seeing, LEADNAV, as a free application for all of its core GPS functionality and solely run on subscription models to better meet the individual user groups. There will be login access for our Enterprise clients currently covering the cost of development for those not subscribing. This absolutely must be done, to continue development and maintenance of all these capabilities and to offer the appropriate pricing for these capabilities per user.

    While you may see MBTile use roll into a lower tier it will remain a subscribed service as we work alongside these mapping partners and further develop for our users.

    We appreciate the input and support. Because of it, I am trying to justify moving it to the Advanced subscription.

    Understand that we are not a large corporate company... we are 3 guys in an office trying to offer you the best capability out there. It is just hard to do that for $20... for life!

    Thank you

    Damian
    Founder
    LEADNAV

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